LibreOffice and OpenOffice

users
#41

But his reasoning as to why he doesn't advocate FOSS is flawed. His given reasons are spurious and don't hold up in real life. That's the point...

#42

** Reply to message from Tom Davies <tomdavies04@yahoo.co.uk> on Fri, 4 Feb
2011 08:08:48 +0000 (GMT)

Ahah, i think you have to download the 2nd file as advised in quite a few places
in order to get help-files downloaded onto your machine. Many people would
consider the help-files "extra bloat" and struggle to keep their system
bloat-free. At least i think that is how it works with most OpenSource
programs.

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

Tom,

If you reread my original post you will see that I did that.

Cliff

#43

I almost always write my comments in felicitous red but i think the list is
plain-text only so you probably receive it in black on white.
 
Html is one specific type of "Document mark-up language".  Often a restricted
sub-set of the same codes are allowed in threads.  However something we
soemtimes take notice of in linux circles is that just because something CAN be
done does not mean it SHOULD be done.  You can learn to have fun with it and
that helps develop skills.  Certainly you don't lose points for not using
mark-up codes.  Just type.  Lets the clever ones show off if they must but don't
copy them/us!
 
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#44

Hi :slight_smile:

Yes, but that is part of the point about opinions.  Often they don't make sense
to people that don't already agree but so what?  Do we have to criticise people
or their ideas?  Many people have already posted pointing out errors and any
more is unnecesary, unhelpful and more likely to entrench people in their own
opinions regardless of facts.

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#45

** Reply to message from Sigrid Carrera <sigrid.carrera@googlemail.com> on
Fri, 4 Feb 2011 10:23:24 +0100

Hi,

Cliff, you "hijacked" a thread (meaning replying to an email and only
changing the subject). Please ask new questions in a new thread (by composing
a new message and not replying).

Your email appears in a different thread in my mail client. So you might get
less responses to your question.

Thanks.

> Greetings everyone,
>
> I've used OOo for a number of years. Today I installed LibreOffice to see how
> it did. So far so good, but one glitch that maybe someone can help me with.
>
> After the install on WinXP I ran the Help files installer supposedly
> successfully. My problem is that I cannot for the life of me figure out how
> to get the offline help to work. F1 or the Help menu always brings up the
> online help. I am not always connected to the Internet so getting the offline
> help working is important to me. I've spent quite a bit of time searching for
> answers online, but with no joy. Have I just overlooked something simple?
> Thanks for any help anyone can give.

Which version did you install? Did you also install the corresponding
language pack? If I remember correctly, you have to install

1. software package
2. language package
3. help package

In this order.

I agree, that this is unfortunate. I don't know, if this is well explained on
the download page or not. If not, it should be added there, so that the user
doesn't get a "surprise" of a not working local help.

Thanks for our response Sigrid. I did indeed hijack a thread not knowing it
would make any difference at all. I'll take your suggestion regarding
starting a new thread in the future.

I downloaded and installed the LibreOffice 3.3 US English Multi version, i.e.
not the universal one will all the other languages. I started LO then
realized that the help went online and remembered that I had to install the
help package. I closed LO installed the help package and tried again, but it
still goes directly to the online help. I even restarted the computer.
Finally I ran the setup from the help directory and told it to check
everything which it did, but still no help. I wonder if the problem was
running LO before installing help. Maybe I should uninstall everything and
reinstall and see if it helps.

Cliff

#46

Good morning, MR ZenWiz,

Do the words "Edit your replies to leave out what isn't relevant" mean
anything in this discussion?

:slight_smile: At midnight, and dead on my feet, I wasn't really interested in editing
anything other than my own text.

A related point is, sometimes when you edit someone else's writings, new
readers can come away with a misunderstanding, or even a lack of knowledge,
especially if they do not take the time to read the original post. I know
when I wrote my reply to Bob Holtzman, I had to scroll back and see exactly
what ws in my original post.

You do know that this stuff is all archived and therefore need NOT be
included in every single reply, right?

I do, and that is a good thing. Censorship, or "constructive editing", or

whatever you may wish to call it, can be a dangerous route to go, depending
on the subject.

A case in point, for those who are not US citizens, and ever for those that
are...

Our House of Representatives made a point (and I'm not sure "point" is the
correct word here) to read the US Constitution at the opening of the new
legislative session. But, they took the route of "selective editing" of the
Constitution, and read only certain parts. Only the portions of the
Constitution that are in effect were read, they did not include the portions
that had been changed or deleted. The negative result is, someone in
another country and sadly even some of our own citizens, could come a way
with a complete misunderstanding of what the original document and its
creators actually said and intended to say. It left out a very valuable
part of our history.

#47

Good morning, Jonathon,

> I'm going to write my comments in blue.

What does blue sound like?

Just to be a "smarta**" this morning, I'm going to say it sounds like New
Orleans Jazz, where people often "sing the blues". LOL

>I don't know if the colour will be be retained as the message goes
through the system,

The only safe assumption that can be made, is that most of the content
of a message will be delivered.

Depending upon the recipient's setup, both presentation markup and
content markup can be, and usually is completely obliterated and destroyed.

I wasn't making any assumptions, but I did want to know what would happen to
the color formatting. In my case, when the mailing list returned my message
to me, the color was retained. That would lead me to believer the options
would be good that if I used other formatting commands available to me, that
would also be retained.

As no one has mentioned it, I do not know if any other reader saw blue
text. So, I have absolutely know idea if anyone other than myself sees blue
text.

> following commands listed across the top of the reply window: Code,
List,
> List=, Img, Table=, Aligntable=, etc. When you click the button, the
> formatting is essentially like using HTML. I've always believed this
just
> to be a customized version/offshoot of HTML, if you will, and modified so
it
> doesn't interfere with regular HTML code.

That is either BBCode, or sanitized HTML. It is used only for
presentation markup. It is not required for content creation.

Agreed, it is not "required for content creation", but the use of formatting
tools leads to better comprehension and understanding of what a writer is
trying to convey. That is why we need to use correct spelling, grammar, and
punctuation.

And no, I am *not* taking any issue of the posters on this list for whom
English is a second or third language.

#48

This applies to so many places in our world today.

#49

Good morning, Gordon,

Hi , Tom,

Likewise, I used to encourage the use of open source software also. And
on
a personal level, I always try to find an open source program for my use.

And my issue is not with the software itself. Even though my impression
is
the software is sometimes slightly buggier, the problems seem to be when
using advanced functions. And a function I don't think the average user
is
likely to attempt.

But that applies to ALL applications, whether FOSS or proprietary. In my
personal experience in large corporations, 75% of MS Office users only use
25% (or less) of the functionality...

I absolutely agree with your comment about MS Office users. But in my
experience, I would say your observation of "75% of MS Office users only use
25% (or less) of the functionality..." might be a bit high. :slight_smile:

It's a bit off topic, but I see many users who, for whatever reason, use MS
Office for whatever it is they want to do. And for a lot of people, it's
totally overkill. :frowning: Sort off like using a Mack truck with a 40' flatbed
trailer, to take your household trash cans to the local landfill.

It's user support where things fall flat on it's face. I only have one

person in my family and friends who would even have a clue as to how to
utilize a mailing list. It's way too cumbersome and clunky for the people
I
know. Even I had trouble figuring this one out! LOL

So sending an email for support is beyond most people? I don't think so!

It can be. It depends entirely on the user's knowledge. Obviously, those
that post here know how to use an email. However, just because a user can
send an email, that does not guarantee they understand how this system uses
email for support.

I'm merely saying, that if you wish to expand the user base to a wider
variety of people, a support system that is easier to use and understand by
a wider variety of people is needed.

There are a lot of users out there, I believe, that could make use of open

source software, but these people usually don't even understand
directories/folders, partitioning, the very basics of using a computer.
When I start to talk to them about disk cleanup and defragging (Windows),
you should see the blank faces I encounter. :slight_smile:

And with ALL modern OS's and apps - there's no NEED to "understand"

directories/folders and PARTITIONING? Where does that come in in USING
softeware?

I have to politely disagree totally with you here. Do you just put your
paperwork in a file drawer or box, helter skelter, with no organization to
make the paperwork easier to find? If you don't know how to organize the
data on your hard drive using directories/folders, how is it going to be
easier to find related data two years from now on that two terabyte drive?

As for partitioning, knowledge of that is not that much different than basic
knowledge of the car you own, is my belief. If you don't know how the
basics of how an engine works, how will you know your mechanic is lying to
you when he/she says they had to replace the piston and rings to fix the
rough running, and charged you for that work, when all that was done was a
new sparkplug and plug wire?

I maintain that knowing about partitioning and it's advantages, as well as
other basics, is an asset to a computer user. Like the automotive example
above, the user doesn't need to know how to do it, aka a car owner doesn't
need to know how to put a new piston in the engine, but if the user knows
the basics of his/her computer, the user has a better chance of knowing when
their computer repair shop is charging for unnecessary repairs.

I've seen people who use Windows, and probably other OS's as well, that save
their data virtually anywhere and everywhere on the hard drive. They put
the data in system folders, on the recovery partition, just about any place
where they should never put the data to minimize the chance of accidentally
deleting or moving the wrong file. And just think about the hoops and
hurdles a piece of backup software has to go through to do an accurate
backup. When MS introduced My Documents in Windows 95, they seemingly broke
many of the standard rules of data storage that I'd learned the years
previous. And, they apparently assumed that their method of data storage
would be the best way for everyone.

I think you are putting mountains where there are molehills, and not

crediting your users with any intelligence at all...

I never said they weren't intelligent, I said they lacked knowledge and
education. :slight_smile:

Shoot, if every person could write code and end up with a piece of software,
there would be a lot of programmers out of a job. LOL Some people are
plumbers, some are "Einsteins". If you want to increase your user base, you
need to create a product that the plumber as well as Einstein can use and
understand.

And I believe this is true for any product someone produces. Just think
back to when a lot of people couldn't figure out how to program their
VCR's. I know a retired high school history teacher who cannot put his own
music on his iPod. :slight_smile: But he is far, far from being unintelligent.

#50

Good morning, Tom,

Hi :slight_smile:

Please can we stop posting criticisms of Ken's opinions? We don't all
agree
with each other, at least hopefully not! Hearing a different point of view
is
important and if people feel intimidated into being unable to express an
unpopular opinion then we are going to miss developing better answers to
suit
more users. We have already heard that there are a few people that have
good
reason to find computer usage difficult.

Thanks for the support, it's appreciated.

I actually consider the discussions that are now two threads to be
"brainstorming", and I don't really consider it to be criticism. Just
another point of view. And ultimately, if this discussion has a positive
outcome, the end product will be better for it.

And only Bob Holtzman's reply "tweaked my sensibilities", as the saying
goes. But I didn't want to fall into the "Tom and Dick" story line I
posted, so I sat back for a couple hours before writing my reply.

I always try to create a post without causing any undue hard feelings. But
as we are all human beings, and we are unfortunately dealing with the
written word, we can never be 100% successful in that. And a good reason
for the use of text smilies to impart the emotions we are trying to convey.

:slight_smile: Except possibly for me..... I'm actually Commander Data's evil twin
Lor! (That's for the Star Trek, Next Generation fans. LOL)

Ken's concern might
simply be a case of helping the documentation team develop systems and
documentation but there might be other things we could do to help.

Exactly. I've had to write instructions, company plans, etc. over the
years. And it is so-o-o-o-o-o-o time consuming and hard to choose sentence
structure, vocabulary, etc. to try to make your documents understandable to
as many people as possible. So I do feel for the individuals who are
involved in just the documentation process.

#51

Hi Ken,

Good morning, Jonathon,

>
> > I'm going to write my comments in blue.
>
> What does blue sound like?
>

Just to be a "smarta**" this morning, I'm going to say it sounds like New
Orleans Jazz, where people often "sing the blues". LOL

[...]

As no one has mentioned it, I do not know if any other reader saw blue
text. So, I have absolutely know idea if anyone other than myself sees blue
text.

To give you some feedback: I don't see any colour formatting. But this is, because my mailer doesn't support any HTML. Honestly, I like it this way.

To see, who wrote what, you use the citation marks ('>') and leave the names mentioned above (On <date> xyz wrote) the email. So you can see clearly, who said what.

[...]

>
> That is either BBCode, or sanitized HTML. It is used only for
> presentation markup. It is not required for content creation.
>

This is very likely BBCode. This is used to make the use of forums safer. (You can insert malicious code into HTML, with BBCode this isn't possible.)

Agreed, it is not "required for content creation", but the use of formatting
tools leads to better comprehension and understanding of what a writer is
trying to convey. That is why we need to use correct spelling, grammar, and
punctuation.

And no, I am *not* taking any issue of the posters on this list for whom
English is a second or third language.

>
> > I've used text smilies for years, yet I still don't know what all of the
> various text smilies or graphical smilies mean.

I use only a very small set of smileys, where I know for sure what they mean. So I personally restrict myself to :slight_smile: and :wink: I think, those are more than sufficient. (At least, they are for me) :wink:

Sigrid

#52

Good morning again, Gordon,

His given reasons are spurious and don't hold up in real life. That's the
point...

Doesn't this mean that your real life experiences are different than mine?

#53

Hi, Tom,

Do we have to criticise people
or their ideas?

This applies to venues other than Libre Office. :frowning: The world seems to be
evolving to a point where different groups simply believe their way is the
only way, and are unwilling to listen and learn from people with a different
point of view.

And then, learn how to accept the other point of view and live peacefully
with each other. :frowning:

And perhaps my observation is a bit off topic. :slight_smile:

#54

Hi, Sigrid,

[...]

As part of this discussion, knowledge and education, more accurately a lack
of knowledge and education, I have no idea what that represents! :slight_smile: If I
were to hazard a guess, I would say it's another text representation for a
smile. Am I close? LOL

> As no one has mentioned it, I do not know if any other reader saw blue
> text. So, I have absolutely know idea if anyone other than myself sees
blue
> text.

To give you some feedback: I don't see any colour formatting. But this is,
because my mailer doesn't support any HTML. Honestly, I like it this way.

And I prefer HTML. It makes it easier when people send you an email that
has inline photos of the grandkid or something else they find interesting.

I've used email clients in the past that didn't support HTML. To me, we
each have our preferences, which is fine as long as we recognize those
preferences, and that neither one is right or wrong.

To see, who wrote what, you use the citation marks ('>') and leave the
names mentioned above (On <date> xyz wrote) the email. So you can see
clearly, who said what.

Of this I do know. LOL!! I actually prefer the citation mark (or carat or
"greater than sign LOL) over the straight line you possibly see in my
replies. This email address from Dishmail.net is actually Gmail in
disguise, and the user does not have the option of choosing a particular
quotation style. The only way I could use the carat would be to manually
manually edit the reply, or set up POP3/automatic forwarding to my desktop
email client. But as of yet, I've not found a desktop client I'm happy
with, so setting something up like that is currently way down towards the
bottom of my priority list.

In addition to citation marks, I actually find color to be quicker for me to
determine who wrote what, and in which message.

> That is either BBCode, or sanitized HTML. It is used only for
> > presentation markup. It is not required for content creation.
> >
This is very likely BBCode. This is used to make the use of forums safer.
(You can insert malicious code into HTML, with BBCode this isn't possible.)

So, that's what BBCode is for and does. Thanks for the information. This
simply seems to reinforce my comments about education and knowledge.

I'm all for anything that keeps those folks at bay. And also another reason
I prefer my Mac to my Windows computers for my personal use. I do run
antivirus, et. al., on the Mac though. Not because there is a huge amount
of viruses and such out there for the Mac, but because I don't want a virus
to manage to slip through my system and then I inadvertently forward the
virus or whatever on to someone else. In the almost two years I've used the
Mac, I've only had one virus successfully make it to my Mac, and that was
from data I copied from another computer via thumb drive. I only have a
free version of the software, and it doesn't check the data from sources
like newly inserted thumb drives.

I use only a very small set of smileys, where I know for sure what they
mean. So I personally restrict myself to :slight_smile: and :wink: I think, those are more
than sufficient. (At least, they are for me) :wink:

Same here. :slight_smile: Interestingly enough, I've used some email software that
when you use this smiley, :), it doesn't know how to display it as HTML, but
if you use :-), you're OK. I've also found the reverse, as well as the
software understanding both.

But, that doesn't do you a bit of good when someone types the smiley
"backwards", as in (-: for a smile. LOL

#55

This thread should be about LibreOffice, and not about how to use an
emailclient...

#56

This discussion is so off-topic it doesn't even belong on this email
list any more. Can you/we at least put it in a different topic thread
with a big [OT] in front so we can skip it from the summary list?

Ken, could you possibly stop using so much vertical space and shorten
your 14-line signature?

Thank you all.

#57

Thank you, Luuk. It should also be noted that this thread is not for
making a dissertation out of every single email. I guess some people
just have too much time on their hands....

#58

On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 11:24 AM, MR ZenWiz <mrzenwiz@gmail.com> wrote:

This discussion is so off-topic it doesn't even belong on this email
list any more. Can you/we at least put it in a different topic thread
with a big [OT] in front so we can skip it from the summary list?

Ken, could you possibly stop using so much vertical space and shorten
your 14-line signature?

Thank you all.

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ken Springer

"All progress depends upon the unreasonable person."
George Bernard Shaw

Cheap prices make for cheap goods; cheap goods make for
cheap men; and cheap men make for a cheap country!"
President William McKinley

http://www.greeleynet.com/~wordwork/airpage.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

#59

Thank you. That was so helpful I just can't describe it.

#60

Which part is high -- the percentage of users or the percentage of the
available functions?

In my experience, I'd say at least 90% of the users use maybe 10% of
the functions. When teaching an introductory course to Windoze, I
encourage beginners to use WordPad. The vast majority of people don't
need anything more.

Of course, users are frequently unaware of available functions. That,
of course, is what led M$ to eliminate the menu structure and
introduce that @*&@#$&* ribbon. (Personally, I think it was the
'personalised menus' that were more at fault -- what users didn't use
didn't appear -- so how were users supposed to find existing
functions?)