Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?

users
#1

I've been thinking a lot about this lately as many of my clients are coming to LibreOffice from Microsoft Office and I deal with both packages quite a bit. Many times, one of the first things I do once LibreOffice is set up is to show clients how to save in Microsoft format as opposed to .odf. It's actually one of the first questions they ask. Lately, I've been wondering about the wisdom of an open source package actively supporting a secret format like the Office ones.

Would it not be preferable to support *only* saving in the open document format and then providing a plugin for Microsoft Office users who needed it? IMHO, allowing users to save in secret formats just continues the problem. They're still using proprietary software, just packaged a different way.

Thoughts?

Cheers,
Anthony

#2

Makes sense but u need to be able to reach others. I think the edge is in supporting a broader range of options not just the vendors. Those moving to opensource solutions need an air of security that they are not isolated from the rest of the world

#3

There was an ENORMOUS discussion about this on the tdf-discuss list on 20 July this year.
You can see the thread here:
http://www.mail-archive.com/discuss@documentfoundation.org/msg07427.html

#4

Which formats to you consider to still be secret? Microsoft has provided free-to-the-public, downloadable specifications for a great number of formats and protocols.

Have you checked the lists of those?

[I am not objecting to the plug-in strategy either way, just wondering whether secrecy of formats applies these days.]

- Dennis

#5

Hi Dennis,

While I haven't looked at the list, I'd have to guess that the entirety of the MSO file formats probably isn't documented since we don't have 100% MSO compatibility in any open source office suite. Microsoft has done a good job of opening up a lot of their specifications, but there is still more work to be done.

Anthony

#6

To be honest, MSO is not going to go away. So the question would be if you want LO to be able to be used in the modern office environment? I remember when OOo did not read .doc files. No one wanted to use it [among my group of people] if it could not read/write MSO files. When OOo was able to read MSO files, then people were willing to try it.

So now with the modern office, the ability to read/write any files your people are using with MSO with your open source office package gives that package an edge. I use LO by default, since MSO does not work on Ubuntu. Also, the newest version of MSO I have used/owned was 2003. The next thing is that I never really thought that MSO's "x" formats were something they really needed. I tell people not to use those formats that came out with MSO 2007.

Now that LO reads and writes most of the MSO file formats, people can use it instead of MSO in their offices and still will be able to deal with these type of files from their workers and the people who send them these office files.

IF LO, OOo, or any other FOSS office package, did not read/write MSO formats, then people would never want to use it in the office or at home if they ever would need to read/write these formats.

SO FOSS office packages must read/write MSO files. Without it, the market for LO [and OOo] would go down to almost ZERO.

#7

This question was studied in considerable detail by Carl Shapiro and Hal Varian (1998) Information rules: a strategic guide to the network economy (Harvard U. Pr.). In brief, Shapiro and Varian say that organizations with a small market share need to make the effort to make it as easy as possible for others to use their product. Organizations with a dominant market share may make more money being arrogant, making it as difficult as possible for their customers to try a competitor's product. Spencer

#8

I know very few people that are able to function without the ability to read or produce a DOC type file. Consider how it would affect you if you could no longer read/write text files, CSV files, PDF files, any graphic image other than say PNG.

#9

See the following proposal:
http://www.mail-archive.com/website@global.libreoffice.org/msg05999.html

#10

Which MS Office file format is secret? They are all published here:
http://www.microsoft.com/interop/docs/officebinaryformats.mspx

LibreOffice does not support them because there are not enough LO
contributors, not because the formats are secret.

#11

I agree, but is not supporting saving in secret formats really isolating them from the rest of the world? Especially if the other software can read the open format, wouldn't it be preferable to just tell them 'don't worry about it, you're compatible' and leave it at that? Besides, I'd think that creating a plugin that helps Microsoft Offices users read .odf files is a lot easier than constantly playing catchup with the secret Microsoft formats.

Anthony

#12

yes;in an ideal world.but then in an ideal world proprietary software would
not have existed

#13

The answer is obvious. Save in odf and get used to using odf.
When there is a requirement to use an MS suffix,use Save As to do a copy in
doc or docx, but keep your copy in odf.

Tink.

#14

For me, the answer is NOT obvious, because of (a) the occasional incompatibilities and (b) the things that are easier in MS Office than LibreOffice. I've had problems with LibreOffice where I save something in *.doc format or *.ppt and reopen it, and it's different. Also, I've been using Open Office / LibreOffice regularly for 1.5 years now, and I still cannot find how to control bullets and numbering as easily as I could with MS Office. For any document I have to send to a collaborator who uses MS Office, I need to keep it primarily in the MS format to increase the chances that I will at least know what is being changed without warning!

       For example, in LibreOffice 3.4.3 Impress, create a dashed line and save it in MS PowerPoint 97 format. Close then reopen it. When I did that just now under Windows 7 x64, the line style was lost and it displayed solid. If I do NOT have to share it with an MS Office user, then I keep it in Open Office format. Otherwise, I must convert at some point to MS format, and I should do that regularly at least until I identify at least one incompatibility problem.

       Best Wishes,
       Spencer

#15

When you have a deliverable in a MSO format, then you must deliver in an MSO format. This is often not negotiable.

If I spend you a document and then tell you "yeah, now here is a list of steps to download and install a plug-in that I sure hope works on your version of MSO and operating system", well, you just the non-technical people.

I know people that still use Word Perfect, so then we would need an ODF reader for them as well.

Even well established products have issues when they do not support legacy formats. As an example, look at Apple when they released their latest video editing software and did not support previous file formats.

MSO even had issues when there was no support for the DOCX format between other versions.

The only company that I have seen successfully do this is Photo Shop. I understand that if you have photo shop deliverables, then you really need to use exactly the same version as that used by the client. Pretty much everyone else that does this seems to have problems in the market.

#16

Spencer,

Any chance you can create a few simple examples and open a bug against the simple examples?

#17

Which MS Office file format is secret? They are all published here:
http://www.microsoft.com/interop/docs/officebinaryformats.mspx

LibreOffice does not support them because there are not enough LO
contributors, not because the formats are secret.

#18

Hi, Andrew:

       Thanks for asking. Attached please find a single slide in LibreOffice Impress consisting of a single dashed line. When I saved it in MS Office 97 ppt format and reopened it in LibreOffice Impress 3.4.3, the dashes were converted visually to solid. When I checked the line style, it reported nothing (not solid, as it had when I drew it before I changed it).

       Other problems I've had were with previous versions, and I have not yet confirmed them in v. 3.4.3. I will do that.

       Spencer

#19

For example, in LibreOffice 3.4.3 Impress, create a dashed line and save it
in MS PowerPoint 97 format. Close then reopen it. When I did that just now
under Windows 7 x64, the line style was lost and it displayed solid.

just checked it in both LO 3.3.4 and 3.4.3.'97 format (ie,ppt) showing the
dashed line as dashed line when opened in LO.when the file is saved into
.pptx,the dashed line is getting converted into a solid one.
so,for me,'97 format is working properly.
anybody else having difficulty with '97 format???
regards,

#20

I agree, but is not supporting saving in secret formats really
isolating them from the rest of the world? Especially if the other
software can read the open format, wouldn't it be preferable to just
tell them 'don't worry about it, you're compatible' and leave it at
that? Besides, I'd think that creating a plugin that helps Microsoft
Offices users read .odf files is a lot easier than constantly playing
catchup with the secret Microsoft formats.

When you have a deliverable in a MSO format, then you must deliver in
an MSO format. This is often not negotiable.

If I spend you a document and then tell you "yeah, now here is a list
of steps to download and install a plug-in that I sure hope works on
your version of MSO and operating system", well, you just the
non-technical people.

That's more or less what happens (if the recipient is lucky) when
someone sends an OOXML file to an MS Office 2000 user.

The only company that I have seen successfully do this is Photo
Shop. I understand that if you have photo shop deliverables, then you
really need to use exactly the same version as that used by the
client. Pretty much everyone else that does this seems to have
problems in the market.

I guess in the PSP case, their file format is not supposed to be used
for deliverables and information interchange.

But the issue with Microsoft, and that's why Tony is right when he says
creating a plugin is easier, is that Microsoft changes formats as a
market strategy. What changed is that in the recent years some
governments finally understood you can't rely on closed formats, and as
"open standard" became a buzzword, Microsoft built their own standard.

This probably doesn't prevent Microsoft from designing a new,
incompatible version of the standard for the next release of their
office suite. Hence the catching up problem.