Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?

users
#41

Yes, that's the issue. I don't know about the binary formats, but I've
read that Microsoft does not actually *follow* OOXML. (This, if true,
means, ironically, that there is no program with complete, 100%, OOXML
support.) Maybe it was just a hoax, but I doubt it. After all, it's
Microsoft.

With Microsoft stardards, either someone steps forward and spends their
time working out how to convert between MS formats and ODF, which will
take a *lot* of time (and will not address the implementation
deviations), or people flag issues and devs will address compatibility
issue by issue.

So, people with compatiblity issues, please report these issues.

#42

Hi :slight_smile:
Yes, but it's very rare for a program to be 100% perfect.  Thigns tend to be reasonably close but just not close enough sometimes.  Of course with proprietary stuff it is usually difficult to get any bugs fixed but with OpenSource it's possible for 'anyone' to fix a bug.

There are a lot of bug-reports about specific problems with MS formats and the list is getting worked through.  Usually the older formats (without the X at the end, eg doc rather than docx) work better because there has been longer to fix the bugs.

LibreOffice doesn't completely conform to ODF standards either but it is trying to get closer. 
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#43

...

I tested as per the above, and indeed LO does save the .doc with
modified column widths. I tested by saveas in LO 3.3.3 and then opened
the .doc with:

LO 3.3.3 (linux)
LO 3.4.3 (linux)
OOo 3.2.1 (go-oo build - Ubuntu linux)
OOo 3.2.0 (Windows)
MSO Word97 (yes I have MSO97 on an VirtuaBox Win2K install)

The worst/more serious issue is that in MSO Word97 blank second column
is inserted/shown. This means that the document renders only 3 populated
columns rather than 4. Screenshot is here:

http://imageshack.us/f/841/screenshotwin2kprorunni.png/

So, you've a valid bug to report. Check to see if one hasn't already
been filed before filing yours. Start a new thread regarding the problem
when you've done that and I'll be glad to contribute/add to the bug
report with my tests/screenshots.

#44

Hi :slight_smile:
Yes, but it's very rare for a program to be 100% perfect. Thigns tend to be reasonably close but just not close enough sometimes.

       Software is subject to a behavioral equivalent to Gödel's theorem in mathematics in that it is humanly impossible to prove that software has no bugs. As far as I know, the closest we can come is to have unit tests with 100 percent coverage of all the options. Even that, however, is not enough, because there are always ambiguities in the documentation, etc., which create opportunities for bugs.

Of course with proprietary stuff it is usually difficult to get any bugs fixed but with OpenSource it's possible for 'anyone' to fix a bug.

       Anyone can submit a bug report. I just provided privately reproducible examples of two problems to Dennis Hamilton, who requested them. (Thanks, Dennis. I did not see a place for bug reports on libreoffice.org, but I also didn't look too hard.)

       With open source, anyone can download the source code. Of course, reading the code and tracing a bug to its source requires some knowledge of how to do that. In theory, however, anyone can do that and offer bug fixes to the core development team. I've done that with R (www.r-project.org) but not LibreOffice, some of which they've accepted and some they haven't.

       Spencer

#45

NoOp & Dennis:

       What is the standard bug reporting procedure for LibreOffice? I looked at "libreoffice.org" and didn't find anything, but I didn't look too hard.

DENNIS: NoOp tested one of the problems I reported; see below.

NoOp: I submitted reproducible examples of two problems to Dennis.

       Thanks very much for your support of LibreOffice.

       Spencer

#46

Gary,

Thanks for finding [MS-ONE] and [MS-ONESTORE] for OneNote. I thought I must have dreamed seeing that listed anywhere. I do notice that neither are covered by the Open Specification Promise or the Community Promise at this time. But I can take them off of my "secret" list.

- Dennis

No worries. Now I just wish that they do one for MS Publisher so that I
could easily convert old .pub files & finally blow out MSO97 and Adobe
PageMaker.

#47

I recommend bookmarking

<https://bugs.freedesktop.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=LibreOffice>.

That is what I use to submit bugs. The link is from one of the web pages on LibreOffice.

- Dennis

#48

NoOp & Dennis:

       What is the standard bug reporting procedure for LibreOffice? I
looked at "libreoffice.org" and didn't find anything, but I didn't look
too hard.

It's not as easy/apparent to find as one would hope. But:

http://www.libreoffice.org/get-involved/
  http://www.libreoffice.org/get-involved/qa-testers/
   http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/BugTriage
[Details on How to report LibreOffice Bugs are also available. ]
and finally:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/BugReport
IMO that last should be on foremost on the the 'Get Involved' page...
but then I'd have to go over to the web list & complain & then file a
bug report requesting that... :slight_smile:

DENNIS: NoOp tested one of the problems I reported; see below.

NoOp: I submitted reproducible examples of two problems to Dennis.

...

#49

Hi :slight_smile:
There is a guide here
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/BugReport
This is mostly guidance rather than rules as each case might be different.  If you can't include all the info required initially then it can always be added in later if needed.
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#50

Hi

This is a general replay to
> Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
illustrating my personal situation, and why my answer is *yes*.

I moved from Microsoft Office Professional to Word Perfect Office
Professional probably 12 to 13 years ago. The reason for the
professional versions is that I needed a database as well as an office
suite. When Open Office first came out, I moved to it, starting with
version .9 something. I needed to keep Paradox as my database at that
time. Once Base became available with Open Office, I was able to move to
Base and drop proprietary software for an office suite completely. Once
I had everything in Open Office, I had one major step forward for
someday moving to Linux instead of Windows. I made that transition 2 1/2
years ago. I get many attachments from co-workers and other
organizations that are sent in Microsoft format. Most of these documents
are relatively simple. I've not had anyone send me anything in docx
format I couldn't read. Generally I will need to adjust margins, or
something like that. I'm 97% Windows free. I only use it for video
editing and for a forms program which will not work with Wine in Linux.
Most of the people who send me these attachments are using what they are
required to use, which is Microsoft. If I could not be somewhat
compatible with them, Open Office or LibreOffice now, would be of no
value to me at all.

If we could get back to the big push of several years for governments to
adopt odf standards for all of their documents, we would all be a lot
better off. But that push would never work if there wasn't some backward
compatibility for the former Microsoft users to be able to open previous
documents.

Don
--

***
*

How many e-documents are essentially lost because no one converted them
from their original format to another and now almost no one has a
program that can read the original files. Having backward compatibility
is important. LO does support many older formats.

#51

You know the link. However it's not easy to find from the standard LO
webpage (see my post in response to Spencer's question. How did you find
it BTW? Why isn't it easy to find?
  I know it's been discussed on this list before & wonder why it's so
hard to find. I suppose it's better discussed on the website list as for
why. But better discussed here as to why not?

...

#52

I rarely use presentation documents, but, I will see if I can create an example of the failure and file a bug unless someone else can do this. Also interested in the numbering/bullet issue that you mentioned.

If you have a simple example of both documents, can you just email me a copy. Worst case, I can host them...

I have not yet figured out filing bugs in LO, but, I expect it will not be a problem to do.

#53

Now that you have en example document, do you know how to open a bug and attach the document that demonstrates the error?

#54

Hi :slight_smile:

Andrew there is a guide to help people post bug-reports
  http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/BugReport

I agree with NoOp, that it is too obscure. I would like it if there was a
link to it from a couple of different pages on the LO website, for example
it's relevant to both these pages imo
  http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/
  http://www.libreoffice.org/get-involved/
It might be good if it was also on
  http://www.libreoffice.org/download/
So that anyone that downloads it sees an easy route to posting a bug-report.

I agree with Edwin, Spencer, Carl Shapiro, Hal Varian and others that say we
need to support MS formats for now and will hopefully need to support them
when they become legacy formats.

I think that as more people use OpenSource programs such as LibreOffice,
Google docs, Calligra, Gnome Office and even some proprietary programs they
will find it easier and better to use OpenDocument Formats. I don't think
we can switch to ODFs until after most people are using programs that can
read/write them adequately well.

Just my 2cents
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#55

Andrew, the dashed-line bug has been confirmed. See the Roundtrip Conversion Problems thread.

#56

Office Open XML is an ISO standard. It is neither a secret nor
proprietary. If you want LO to support it, then support a coder who
will code it.

#57

By that logic, LO uses a secret format as well. LO and OpenOffice.org
deviate from the ODF standard in more documented ways than MS Office
deviates from OOXML.

#58

One team at MS works on MS Office, another on the OOXML standard. This
is required to be considered for a standard. Much how LO is written by
a group of programmers, and the ODF standard by engineers. LO does not
implement the ODF standard 100% either.

#59

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I've been thinking a lot about this lately as many of my clients are

coming to LibreOffice from Microsoft Office and I deal with both
packages quite a bit. Many times, one of the first things I do once
LibreOffice is set up is to show clients how to save in Microsoft format
as opposed to .odf. It's actually one of the first questions they ask.
Lately, I've been wondering about the wisdom of an open source package
actively supporting a secret format like the Office ones.

Would it not be preferable to support *only* saving in the open

document format and then providing a plugin for Microsoft Office users
who needed it? IMHO, allowing users to save in secret formats just
continues the problem. They're still using proprietary software, just
packaged a different way.

Thoughts?

This is the only comment that I will make on this, and I think it's
pretty self-explanatory as to why MS formats need to be supported.

I work as an attorney. One of the frequent requirements from judges is
that we deliver copies of our proposed orders to them in MS Word format.

I am in no position to tell a judge that he is using the "wrong" format
and needs to install a plug-in on his county-owned and -maintained
computer--which he may not even have the authority, let alone the
know-how, to do--so that he can read the files I send him.

If LibO stops supporting MS Office files, I will have no choice and will
be forced to discontinue using LibO. I suspect the same is true of
people who work in a more corporate setting, as opposed to a judicial one.

- --
Steven Shelton

#60

MS don't implement their standard in the way that they wrote they
would.  Having set a standard anyone that follows that standard is
guaranteed to produce things that are a little wonky when opened in
MS Office.  LO devs work at getting LO's implementation as wonky as
MS's but the wonkiness is the unknown factor.

Ok, I can accept that. But then, aren't we back to a 'secret format'?
If I implement a standard to write out a file a certain way and do it
in another way that isn't documented then I'm not following the
standard and, thus, my filetype is secret. The only way it's *not*
secret is if they file is written to the standard without any
deviations.

[...]

By that logic, LO uses a secret format as well. LO and OpenOffice.org
deviate from the ODF standard in more documented ways than MS Office
deviates from OOXML.

Yes, there are deviations. I even remember threads about LibO files
failing ODF validation.

But, as LibreOffice is free software, its source is open. So people who
want to find out how exactly are LibO ODF files generated can check the
source.