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Editing and/or responding within the "original message" is considered
tampering with evidence. Everyone is supposed to TOP POST, not only to
save developer time, but to allow the legal teams to read from the
bottom up on the last message identifying how things progressed this
far.
I don't know if you are having difficulties with your mail client, but
your recent responses seem to be double posting.
Hi 
A LOT of people top-post. Particularly normal office workers.
Most email clients seem to default to open emails at the top of the email.
Between normal office workers this is normally the latest thing in an ongoing
thread. If the poor worker can't remember earlier posts then they just scroll
down for a quick refresher.
Most normal office workers open the email, see the latest thing that might need
a response and then just click on the reply button and start typing. Done.
Next email.
With bottom posting the email gets opened at some ancient history that is far
too familiar now and might even be something completely unrelated. Then the
person scrolls to the bottom of the thread where all the signatures and notes
about antivirus scans and stuff so the person has to scroll up a bit before
reaching the relevant part. Then click on the reply button (perhaps delete out
old parts as reading through) and again scroll to the bottom, delete off all the
signatures and stuff about antivirus and disclaimers. Then start typing.
Done. Next email.
So, it's more hassle and takes longer for most office workers to do
bottom-posting and so they (oddly enough) opt for the much easier method of
top-posting.
Regardless of why they do it or how stupid they are for doing something other
than the way YOU like to do things that is the way most office workers work. Is
the job of the users list to criticise and alienate new users? or should we be
welcoming them in and encouraging them?
IF we want to alienate new users and start off by criticising them and being
judgemental (instead of answering their questions) then bottom-posting is
great. Do we want to stop new people from using LO, is the aim to stop people
from wanting to use LO? or do 'we' want people to use it?
Some people in here criticise me for not doing things the way they normally
work. I say that those that criticise me are an almost infinitesimally small
number of people compared against the total numbers of people that use an office
suite everyday. People that stand against top-posting in the users list remind
me of King Canute trying to stop the incoming tide.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-13524677
It seems that at least he was wise enough to realise that the tide was
overwhelmingly more powerful than he was. IF we are to deal with new users then
we need to be able to cope easily with top-posters on THEIR terms, not ours.
Regards from
Tom
Posting styles and etiquette is described in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style
When you are dealing with several complex threads of discussion it
helps if you do *properly*
either top or bottom posting.
For top posting, you need to summarize what has been said earlier. A
simple 'No' is bad manners because the recipient needs to scroll down
and figure out what is being referred to.
You would need to write «No, F11 is the key to bring up the styles
window in Writer».
In bottom posting, you can write less, having more context. For example,
Lol
I guess you don't work in an office nor work with other office workers much!!
Regards from
Tom
Rotflmao!
Roland, you are obviously from some other planet than I.
In the circles I frequent, it is the exact opposite.
It is the IT people who are most likely to know how to properly use
their mail client, and properly quote emails when replying.
It is Microsoft Outlook weened drones that are most likely to be lazy
asses who simply cannot be bothered to learn how to properly use their
mail client.
Obviously you travel in that world of "got paid to write a program once"
instead of the "three plus year multi-million dollar bet the company
systems development projects." I can tell you what world I travel in.
Remember the articles which came out in ComputerWorld and the other
trade rags after 9/11? The ones about how the trading companies who
used distributed OpenVMS clusters lost two of their sites and most of
their people when the Twin Towers fell, but the trading system continued
executing trades until the end of business WITHOUT LOSING A SINGLE
TRANSACTION. All other companies using all other operating systems lost
massive amounts of transactions along with their locations. Most of
those companies did not re-open their doors.
That's my world. Designing and developing systems which continue
running without error long after the humans are gone.
plino wrote (30-05-11 10:28)
I have to disagree both with you Cor and with NoOp.
You're welcome, but the archives show what happened and happens.
COr
A LOT of people top-post. Particularly normal office workers.
Yeah, because they're typically a bunch of lazy bums...
Most email clients seem to default to open emails at the top of the
email.
Not sure that's true (I know Thunderbirds default is to bottom post),
but its a piss poor excuse for being a lazy sob.
Between normal office workers this is normally the latest thing in an
ongoing thread. If the poor worker can't remember earlier posts then
they just scroll down for a quick refresher.
Like I said... LAZY.
Most normal office workers open the email, see the latest thing that
might need a response and then just click on the reply button and
start typing. Done. Next email.With bottom posting the email gets opened at some ancient history
that is far too familiar now and might even be something completely
unrelated.
Only if the one doing the bottom posting doesn't trim their reply. It is
actually much EASIER to read a properly formatted in-line posted
response (ala this one).
Then the person scrolls to the bottom of the thread where all the
signatures and notes about antivirus scans and stuff so the person
has to scroll up a bit before reaching the relevant part.
Tom, I refuse to believe that you are truly this stupid, seeing as we
have had this conversation before, so you are obviously being
intentionally disingenuous...
As I said above, you KNOW that everyone who advocates bottom/in-line
posting does so with the understanding that the quoted text MUST be
properly trimmed to include ONLY the relevant portions needed to
maintain context.
ONLY a lazy sob like yourself would assume that no trimming would/should
take place.
So, it's more hassle and takes longer for most office workers to do
bottom-posting and so they (oddly enough) opt for the much easier
method of top-posting.
Sure, it might take a few seconds longer to properly format a longer and
more complex reply (like this one) than just blindly clicking Reply and
top-posting, but it is much more readable, meaningful, and pleasing to
read these kinds of replies than yours.
And for short replies, it only takes me a second longer, because all I
have to do is highlight the relevant text needed to maintain context,
and then when I click reply, that is ALL that is included in the quoted
text.
If your mail client won't do that, then get a real mail client that will.
Some people in here criticise me for not doing things the way they
normally work.
I don't care how you work, but I do care when you purposefully and
intentionally misrepresent the case between top and bottom/in-line posting.
Please at LEAST be HONEST about it, Tom...
Editing and/or responding within the "original message" is considered
tampering with evidence.
Rotflmao even harder!
Roland, where do you get this garbage? Do you make it up as you go?
Everyone is supposed to TOP POST, not only to save developer time,
Stop it, please, my sides are hurting!
but to allow the legal teams to read from the bottom up on the last
message identifying how things progressed this far.
Sorry, I don't modify my personal habits to fit the needs of Outlook
weened lawyer drones.
The chain of evidence for legal purposes is in the ORIGINAL emails, not
endlessly/mindlessly quoted copies of stupid email signatures and
mindless and unenforceable legal disclaimers.
Which has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.
Your arguments in support of top posting were specious and without
merit, and this is what you come back with?
PLONK.
Hi,
Editing and/or responding within the "original message" is considered
tampering with evidence. Everyone is supposed to TOP POST, not only to
save developer time, but to allow the legal teams to read from the
bottom up on the last message identifying how things progressed this
far.> > Joep,
> >
> > Professional IT workers never remove any portion of the post because
> > when you go through a SOX audit, and then through court, you get in a
> > whole lot of trouble for doing it.
> >
> > Now, people who once got paid for writing a program or use Microsoft
> > products may well have different opinions since their not the ones
> > working on multi-million dollar projects for Fortunate 500 companies.
> >
> > There is a long drawn out history of people deleting what they didn't
> > read then denying things were said.
> >
> > Bottom posting wastes vast quantities of developers time scrolling to
> > the end. Full quoting is a policy mandated by most major corporations
> > and IT organizations because it allows management (and the legal team)
> > to jump into the conversation at any point.
> >
> > I wouldn't even be on this list had the Web site been designed by
> > software professionals instead of whoever was used.
> >
> >
> >>> Neither bottom nor interleaved posting methods are used by professional
> >>> IT workers. Microsoft developers yes, but not professionals.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Sigh! Roland your remark is utter nonsens. Many lists courteously
> >> request to bottom post but also request clipping. Professional IT
> >> workers remove unnecessary wording from replies and adhere to
> >> courteously requested rules.
> >> Joep
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> Roland,
> Permit me to disagree. If you need E-mails for court representation it
> is best to furnish the original E-mails not the parts of text in answers
> to E-mails. You answer the relevant portions of an E-mail as the
> originator has the original text. I don't think a court will accept the
> umptieth repeat of an original E-mail. But I live in the Netherlands and
> I have no idea how convoluted American lawyers and justices actually
> reason. Well, that goes for Dutch members of that kind also. It is a
> breed that I, as a simple scientist, not understand so therefore your
> reasoning might be right.
> Joep
>--
Roland Hughes, President
Logikal Solutions
(630)-205-1593http://www.theminimumyouneedtoknow.com
http://www.infiniteexposure.netNo U.S. troops have ever lost their lives defending our ethanol
reserves.
From what I understand, top posting is generally preferred for general
business communication. The problem with bottom posting is that one must
scroll done to see the answer and there is a tendency to edit the text,
which may be unacceptable in court. When viewing edited text one could
claim the editing changed the meaning of the original if involved in a
law suit - a very nasty legal issue.
You have just demonstrated a complete lack of understanding about IT and
have __obviously__ never ever found yourself in the middle of a
multi-million dollar lawsuit between two massive corporations. If you
had you would never speak so far out your rectal orifice in public. I
have been in that situation and my side won, not just some counts, ALL
counts. For the most part the other side lost because they "edited and
middle posted" in their emails so when placed on the stand had to work
from memory because the email they had in their hand was missing
everything damning.
I won't bother responding to you. It is obvious that you are both
unemployed and unemployable, having no industry knowledge or experience
what-so-ever.
HELP!!!!!!!!!!!
I am receiving 20 and more emails daily. I have tried many, many times to unsubscribe with NO SUCCESS.
PLEASE give me an email, land line, snail mail address, or phone number where I can UNSUBSCRIBE.
You have just demonstrated a complete lack of understanding about IT
and have __obviously__ never ever found yourself in the middle of a
multi-million dollar lawsuit between two massive corporations.
Objection, your honor, relevancy - the one has nothing to do with the other.
If you had you would never speak so far out your rectal orifice in
public. I have been in that situation and my side won, not just some
counts, ALL counts. For the most part the other side lost because
they "edited and middle posted" in their emails so when placed on
the stand had to work from memory because the email they had in
their hand was missing everything damning.
Then they lost because they were stupid... all they would have had to do
was have the entire exchange of emails (consisting of multiple emails).
There is absolutely *zero* need to have it all in one email.
I won't bother responding to you.
Thank you - I waste far too much of my time already on morons like you
as it is.
It is obvious that you are both unemployed and unemployable, having
no industry knowledge or experience what-so-ever.
Well, since I've been the IT Director for this company for 11+ years, I
guess your powers of observation are just about as valid/reliable as the
rest of your delusions...
From what I understand, top posting is generally preferred for
general business communication. The problem with bottom posting is
that one must scroll done to see the answer and there is a tendency
to edit the text, which may be unacceptable in court.
Bullcrap. All you have to do is provide the original *series* of emails,
in successive order, as they were exchanged.
Do you have any idea how trivial it is to edit the contents of an email?
When viewing edited text one could claim the editing changed the
meaning of the original if involved in a law suit - a very nasty
legal issue.
I disagree - proper editing - as long as you don't actually change the
*quoted* text, and only trim out irrelevant and unnecessary text - can
actually make communication *clearer* and more concise, and *less* prone
to confusion, error or misunderstanding.
Richard,
If actual IT professionals set up the server correctly, you send a
COMPLETELY EMPTY MESSAGE to users+help@libreoffice.org
No SIG files, no subject, no message body.
Given the organization of the Web site, and those genetic miss-fits from
management that hang out here and speak directly out their rectal
orifice without even the tiniest shred of knowledge...I would not be
surprised to find out that doesn't work either.
Management = genetic miss-fits promoted to their level of inability.
Of course, you email system ought to provide a Web interface. Open your
browser without your email client being opened and go to that Web page.
Find messages from
Tanstaafl <tanstaafl@libertytrek.org>
and flag them as junk mail. Do this on the server via the Web interface
and it will stop gigs of useless bits from attempting to come down your
dial up connection.
Open your browser without your email client being opened and go to
that Web page. Find messages from
and flag them as junk mail.
There fixed that for you...
And you're welcome...
Wow, somewhere in there i see an admittance that it is marginally easier to
top-post. At last.
Regards from
Tom
I don't recall anyone ever saying it wasn't *easier*...
It is also *easier* to steal apples from your neighbors apple tree than
it is to grow your own... nbut that doesn't make it better *or* right.