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#41

Hi,

You have just demonstrated a complete lack of understanding about IT and
have __obviously__ never ever found yourself in the middle of a
multi-million dollar lawsuit between two massive corporations. If you
had you would never speak so far out your rectal orifice in public. I
have been in that situation and my side won, not just some counts, ALL
counts. For the most part the other side lost because they "edited and
middle posted" in their emails so when placed on the stand had to work
from memory because the email they had in their hand was missing
everything damning.

In your office, you can do as you want. But on this list, we have a set of rules, that everyone should take into account. And one of this rules, is to not top post, but reply *below* the paragraph your referring to and deleting the stuff, you're not replying.

Not doing this shows only your ignorance.

If you're going to a football match, you do obey the rules for the game, you don't make up your own rules, or? So please, do us the favour and use the rules, that this group has given itself. And please spare us with such anecdotes - it doesn't matter here.

Thank you.

Sigrid

PS: Btw, if you don't believe me, just have a look at the footer of the list:

Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette

So you can refer to the guidelines anytime you want.

#42

Roland,

Richard,

If actual IT professionals set up the server correctly, you send a
COMPLETELY EMPTY MESSAGE to users+help@libreoffice.org

No SIG files, no subject, no message body.

Given the organization of the Web site, and those genetic miss-fits from
management that hang out here and speak directly out their rectal
orifice without even the tiniest shred of knowledge...I would not be
surprised to find out that doesn't work either.

Management = genetic miss-fits promoted to their level of inability.

Of course, you email system ought to provide a Web interface. Open your
browser without your email client being opened and go to that Web page.
Find messages from

Tanstaafl <tanstaafl@libertytrek.org>

and flag them as junk mail. Do this on the server via the Web interface
and it will stop gigs of useless bits from attempting to come down your
dial up connection.

I think that went too far. I don't call you an idiot or ignorant. I think an apology is in place. Or, if you don't want to do this, then go your way and leave us here. We don't need you to insult the users here on this list. Users, that have a great history of helping others.

Sigrid

[unnecessary quote removed]

#43

Hi :slight_smile:
If rules are set-up to alienate new users then i think they are worth ignoring.
It is not acceptable to blindly follow orders or rules that cause harm or are
ridiculous. If TDF set a rule that said that all users must walk backwards
would you obey it? Would you berate people that didn't follow it?

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

#44

I think they are called guidelines for a reason.

It would be good if we weren't so bureaucratic about this.

There is a difference between engaging in a conversation that works for the participants and providing some sort of linear record that requires people to work hard to make sure they have found everything.

Also, as you may notice, many of us use mail tools that do not "quote" lines of previous messages.

I do agree that the current ranting is not useful. These debates have been going on for years and there is no truth to any way of doing it.

- Dennis

PS: The legalese is also silly when we are talking about threads on distribution lists, because the archive knows all.

#45

...

Bottom posting wastes vast quantities of developers time scrolling to
the end. Full quoting is a policy mandated by most major corporations
and IT organizations because it allows management (and the legal team)
to jump into the conversation at any point.

...

I suppose you can cite some case law, or some link to a corporation
policy for this claim?

#46

Cite.

#47

Hi,

In your office, you can do as you want. But on this list, we have
a set of rules, that everyone should take into account. And one
of this rules, is to not top post, but reply *below* the
paragraph your referring to and deleting the stuff, you're not
replying.

Not doing this shows only your ignorance.

+1

Stefan

#48

Thanks.
I do have a way to specify these messages as JUNK, and not even open them, BUT, they are still downloaded before being rejected as junk, so I get all this garbage going thru my system before the being dumped into the trash. $*#@*&*
You get the idea.
Thanks for your input, Roland.
Richard

#49

If rules are set-up to alienate new users then i think they are worth
ignoring.

Your attitude is why many people look on your posts with disdain, Tom.

It also sets up a false premise.

The rule is not set up to alienate new users, and as long as people are
simply *and* *politely* pointed to the rules, new users should *not* be
offended when this is pointed out to them, and the vast majority *would*
not be offended - exceptions being people like you...

It is not acceptable to blindly follow orders or rules that cause
harm or are ridiculous.

Another false premise... the posting guidelines do not cause harm and
are not ridiculous - in fact, when properly followed, they cause
*goodness*...

What *is* ridiculous and *does* cause harm is when people intentionally
misrepresent them in order to support their own predilection for
laziness - like you have been doing since this subject first came up.

If TDF set a rule that said that all users must walk backwards would
you obey it? Would you berate people that didn't follow it?

No, and no, but of course, your comparison is about as appropriate as
comparing someone who kills a mosquito that is pestering them to a child
rapist/murderer.

#50

I don't know about [developers], but it sure wastes the hey out of [my] time.
When you've read ten or more messages with the same subject line, you've got a
fair idea what the next reply is about. Read the poster's comment, then scroll
-- if necessary -- to read context, rather than scrolling for endless screens
just to find the latest comment. Just my two one-hundredths oif a Federal
Reserve Note's worth...

#51

Please stop with the same old tired false premise/FUD...

*No* *one* (in their right mind) advocates *untrimmed* bottom/inline
posting, which, I *agree*, is the *only* thing that is worse than
blindly top-posting. *Properly* *trimmed*, you generally don't have to
scroll *at* *all*.

Regardless of which method you engage in, you should *always* trim your
quoted text to only the relevant portion.

#52

Richard,

Specifying Tanstaafl <tanstaafl@libertytrek.org> messages as junk/spam
ON THE EMAIL SERVER will stop them from ever being downloaded!

Roland

#53

Top posting and full quoting has been the written policy at every
Fortune 500 company I've consulted at in the past 20+ years. It's in
that little policy guide handed to every new consultant and new
employee...you know...the one you are supposed to read BEFORE you do
anything.

#54

As it will for roland@logikalsolutions.com.

PLONK

#55

  

I don't know about [developers], but it sure wastes the hey out of [my] time. When you've read ten or more messages with the same
subject line, you've got a fair idea what the next reply is about.
Read the poster's comment, then scroll -- if necessary -- to read
context, rather than scrolling for endless screens just to find the
latest comment. Just my two one-hundredths oif a Federal Reserve
Note's worth...
    
Please stop with the same old tired false premise/FUD...

*No* *one* (in their right mind) advocates *untrimmed* bottom/inline
posting, which, I *agree*, is the *only* thing that is worse than
blindly top-posting. *Properly* *trimmed*, you generally don't have to
scroll *at* *all*.

Regardless of which method you engage in, you should *always* trim your
quoted text to only the relevant portion.

This is getting to be a pretty tiresome thread, and it is obvious that the main protagonists are never going to change their views, no matter how right or wrong they are.

However, you've hit the nail on the head, tanstaafl. Maybe no one *advocates* untrimmed bottom posting, but many people do it, and it is extremely counter-productive in so many ways. Notwithstanding all your emphases above, the fact is that *very* *few* people, particularly those writing in non-newsgroup environments but also many many newsgroup posters, do any trimming, let alone the 'proper trimming' to which you refer. That is one, just one, of the reasons why most people top-post and will continue to do so. I get so sick of being forced to page down to see the latest text that, unless it is a subject in which I am particularly interested, I will often delete the message unread if the latest contribution is not visible on the first screen page.

This message is bottom-posted only because the last one was.

Lindsay Graham
Canberra, Australia

#56

Here Here!

I would add that trimmers _almost always_ quote out of context, chopping
off sentences and paragraphs in such a way as to completely change the
meaning of the original poster, so they can spin a conversation away
from its central topic towards something which makes their insignificant
lives seem to have meaning...Think Glen Beck and Fox News....

#57

As do I... if someone is incapable of properly using their mail client,
I'm probably not interested in anything they have to say, especially for
computer related lists...

That said, I do allow a lot more leeway on non-technical lists...

#58

Ah, but neither of us would *ever *need to page down to see the current post if we both top-posted.

You cannot claim, in a general context, that there is there is a *proper* way of using one's mail client. The way in which it is used will depend on the particular environment and the guidelines, if any, that have been developed for use in that environment. It is only in some, generally technical, newsgroups that bottom posting is specified as preferred (which is different from *proper*). In most mailing lists (and I access libreoffice-users through a mailing list, not a newsgroup) and almost *all *commercial correspondence, top-posting is used. Why? Because, it is the most suitable in those environments. On the other hand, I agree that bottom-posting is suitable in a well-disciplined technical newsgroup -- but how many are well-disciplined (ie, follow newsgroup netiquette)? Not many.

Lindsay Graham

#59

This is a silly argument...

Ah, but neither of us would *ever *need to page down to see the
current post if we both top-posted.

Irrelevant... like I said, the same thing applies to a properly trimmed
bottom/inline posted message.

The only time I need to scroll a bottom/inline posted message (which I
mostly don't bother doing, I just click delete) is when someone like Tom
bottom posts *without trimming*...

You cannot claim, in a general context, that there is there is a
*proper* way of using one's mail client.

I can, I did, and I meant it.

In most mailing lists (and I access libreoffice-users through a
mailing list, not a newsgroup) and almost *all *commercial
correspondence, top-posting is used.

Ahem... the posting guidelines link at the bottom of each and every one
of the libreoffice-users list asks you to please bottom post... so your
own example was misplaced... :wink:

Why? Because, it is the most suitable in those environments.

Wrong - it is because most people are lazy, and it is the easiest, and
because it is the default for Outlook, which is what most corporate
drones use.

On the other hand, I agree that bottom-posting is suitable in a
well-disciplined technical newsgroup -- but how many are
well-disciplined (ie, follow newsgroup netiquette)? Not many.

They are not well disciplined because they are lazy, and because they
can get away with in most cases.

#60

One of these again?

How many of these are needed?

Sorry to add to the spam... And yes there was one of these already