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So, the argument is that people should follow rules(although they are really
only guidelines) in order to not be a drone?? and you say that someone elses
argument is silly! lol
Regards from
Tom 
THIS WHILE THING IS SILLY - YOU ARE DEBATING THE **CORRECT** WAY TO
POST ... WHILE YOU **KNOWINGLY** POSTING **OFF-TOPIC**! IF YOU HAVE TO
PUT "O T" IN THE SUBJECT IT DOESN'T MATTER YOUR POSTING STYLE - YOU
SHOULD BE POSTING ELSEWHERE OR OFF-LIST.
SHUT UP AND GO AWAY.
And, yes, this message in intentionally all-caps to indicate *YELLING*.
Tom, please stop top posting.
I'll make it clear: this list is not only about you or me. This list
is archived for the future. In order for those archives to be useful,
proper posting style is to trim posts and quote relevant parts in the
order of natural conversation. In English that means left to right and
top to bottom.
I dislike unnecessary scrolling as much as you do. But even worse is
an archive of useless, unsorted information. I like to google my
issues before asking, but top posting separates the answers from the
questions. That is like taking your family photos, cutting them up,
and putting all the pieces in a box. The information is all still
there, but it is so disorganized that it is impossible to enjoy.
Please, for the sake of the archives and those who use them, please
stop top posting.
> So, the argument is that people should follow rules(although they are really
> only guidelines) in order to not be a drone?? and you say that someone elses
> argument is silly! lol
> Regards from
.......snip......
Please, for the sake of the archives and those who use them, please
stop top posting.
His posts indicate he's doing it just to be different. He doesn't care
how much it inconveniences any one else. It's akin to a child saying "I
can do anything I want. My Mommy said so".
On Tue, 31 May 2011 12:09:25 -0400, Tanstaafl
<tanstaafl@libertytrek.org> wrote Re Re: [libreoffice-users] [OT
Top/Bottom posting] Re: Sun Weblog Publisher broken:
I get so sick of being forced to page down to see the latest text that,
unless it is a subject in which I am particularly interested, I will
often delete the message unread if the latest contribution is not
visible on the first screen page.As do I... if someone is incapable of properly using their mail client,
I'm probably not interested in anything they have to say, especially for
computer related lists...
+1 on that.
Uh-oh! Civil Disobedience.....
Top posting for freedom 
Professional IT workers never remove any portion of the post because
when you go through a SOX audit, and then through court, you get in a
whole lot of trouble for doing it.
For a SOX audit the important thing is that the emails are available as
they were _ORIGINALLY_ sent. It does not matter one iota if the emails
are top posted, bottom posted, intermixed, or none of the message being
responded to is quoted.
If your firm takes to editing emails after they were sent, then they
ought to fail SOX Audit.
Courts are more concerned about the sequence that messages were sent,
and their contents, than whether top posting, bottom posting, intermixed
quoting, or nothing was used.
When courts have looked at the quoting practices of an individual, it
usually is triggered by a change in quoting practices. A change that may
have been the result of tampering with emails after they were sent.
working on multi-million dollar projects for Fortunate 500 companies.
a) Microsoft is a Fortune 500 company;
b) For at least three decades, the professional IT consensus has been to
quote _only_ the appropriate text. That is the text that one is directly
responding to.
There is a long drawn out history of people deleting what they didn't
read then denying things were said.
That sounds you are talking about deleting content _after_ the email was
sent, not before it was sent.
There are no legal barriers to deleting content prior to sending the
message. There are a number of legal objections to deleting content
after sending the messages. Objections that can, in some instances,
result in gaol time.
Full quoting is a policy mandated by most major corporations
Gomma gama. Gomma gama.
because it allows management (and the legal team) to jump into the conversation at any point.
If an email suggests doing something that is a clear violation of the
law of the land, then legal might jump in, without looking at any other
messages in the thread. Even then, legal should limit itself to saying:
"Proposal x goes against company policy". Even under those
circumstances,legal should review the entire thread before posting
anything. In all other cases, legal should review the entire thread,
before engaging the message thread.
jonathon
I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice.
- --
If Bing copied Google, there wouldn't be anything new worth requesting.
If Bing did not copy Google, there wouldn't be anything relevant worth
requesting.
DaveJakeman 20110207 Groklaw.
Supposedly, both rugby and Australian rules football got started that way.
jonathon
- --
If Bing copied Google, there wouldn't be anything new worth requesting.
If Bing did not copy Google, there wouldn't be anything relevant worth
requesting.
DaveJakeman 20110207 Groklaw.
Top posting and full quoting has been the written policy at every
Fortune 500 company I've consulted at in the past 20+ years. It's in
that little policy guide handed to every new consultant and new
employee...you know...the one you are supposed to read BEFORE you do
anything.
Really... well I reckon you are set for the no-hire in the Fortune 500
companies that I've worked at and consulted for over the past 30 years.
But that's OK. Give that you can't provide any actual case law or
company policy reference I'll leave it be. It's off to the filters you go.
Ah, but neither of us would *ever *need to page down to see the current
post if we both top-posted.
Instead, I have to page down, and read the entire post, to try to figure
out what you are responding to, and get the context of that reply.
So instead of zipping thru twenty emails per minute, I only go through
two or three emails per minute.
You cannot claim, in a general context, that there is there is a
*proper* way of using one's mail client.
Actually, I do make that claim.
Intermixed quotes are the proper way to do things, because that is the
only format in which the context the reply being made can be readily
ascertained.
jonathon
- --
If Bing copied Google, there wouldn't be anything new worth requesting.
If Bing did not copy Google, there wouldn't be anything relevant worth
requesting.
DaveJakeman 20110207 Groklaw.
+1
+1 on that
Assuming it works. Sometimes systems fail to show a difference between the
previous posting and the reply. If everyone used the same system then it might
work. But different people need different systems for different reasons.
Regards from
Tom
Except that, as stated earlier you often know the past history of many emails
just form the subject-line so many people don't need nor want to see all that
history all over again but might occasionally want to double-check something on
a rare occasion.
The point is that we need to be able to cope with variety if we are going to
helpful and friendly towards people that are not already in the tiny percentage
of office workers using LO.
Regards from
Tom
Rules are relatively new in football's history. The original game goes way
back before medieval times and had few or no rules, even methods of scoring was
not consistent and some had very indistinct 'goals'. Variants of the older game
still survive in specific villages and a few towns throughout Europe. One that
is restricted to a set pitch rather than using the entire town is played between
prisoners released for the day and is more of a boxing match between various
groups of players, no gloves.
In pool halls and pubs the players often agree to which set of rules apply
before the game. Same with poker, backgammon, even chess has many variants.
Rules that are too rigid, inflexible and fail to take into account what people
commonly do will often found to be broken and re-written later.
Just because something is written as a rule now does not mean that it will be
acceptable behaviour in the future (or in the past). Smoking pot was legal
until 1969 in the US. Prohibition failed to stop people from drinking and was
finally stopped. Nowadays people seem to be encouraged to drink. Does that
mean drinking is good or was bad.
I realise that people with OCD and autism often need tightly controlled
environments and that skilled or even gifted IT people tend to have a much
higher percentage of people with those conditions than the general population
but people with those conditions often go in completely opposite directions of
what they need. So, i can see why some people would argue to restrict other
people's use of the lists and i even think that is fairly fine on some of the
lists but the users list is the first and only way for most new people to access
help and those new people are unlikely to be familiar with bottom-posting and
may not want to change their entire emailing system just to get an answer to 1
quick question.
We need to be flexible on this list. Both top and bottom (and other) posting
must be allowed to continue otherwise we restrict the percentage of people that
would feel welcomed and feel like continuing to use LO. If we don't want new
users and want to make people feel uneasy and unwelcome then fine, insist on
bottom posting.
Regards from
Tom
There is good reason, beyond SOX, that most commercial and
non-commercial email clients default to top-posting. It's required in
the vast majority of corporations around the world.
http://www.ask.com/wiki/Posting_style
For a long time the traditional style was to post the answer below as
much of the quoted original as was necessary to understand the reply
(bottom or inline). Many years later, when email became widespread in
business communication, it became a widespread policy to reply above the
entire original and leave it untouched below the reply.
...
Top-posting has always been the standard format for forwarding a message
to a third party; in which case the comments at the top (if any) are a
"cover note" for the recipient.
...
Customer service e-mail practices, in particular, often require that all
points be addressed in a clear manner without quoting, while the
original e-mail message may be included as an attachment.
-2
http://www.ask.com/wiki/Posting_style
For a long time the traditional style was to post the answer below as
much of the quoted original as was necessary to understand the reply
(bottom or inline). Many years later, when email became widespread in
business communication, it became a widespread policy to reply above the
entire original and leave it untouched below the reply.
Top-posting has always been the standard format for forwarding a message
to a third party; in which case the comments at the top (if any) are a
"cover note" for the recipient.
Customer service e-mail practices, in particular, often require that all
points be addressed in a clear manner without quoting, while the
original e-mail message may be included as an attachment.
Tom, you have a proclivity for ignoring what is said and hearing only
what you want to hear.
That is not what I said, and you know it - just like you know that no
one advocates bottom/inline posting without trimming, yet you constantly
ignore that and always resort to saying how ugly bottom posting is
because 'you have to scroll all the way down below all of the untrimmed
text to get to the reply' as an argument against it.
You are a troll, Tom, at least with respect to this argument.
Assuming it works. Sometimes systems fail to show a difference
between the previous posting and the reply.
Only if improperly configured.
If everyone used the same system then it might work. But different
people need different systems for different reasons.
Almost all 'systems' (by this I presume you mean mail clients) can be
configured to properly show email quotes - if a 'system' won't allow it,
then file a bug report and get it fixed, or don't use it.