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Hi 
+1
Regards from
Tom
Hi
Look, the interspersed answers from Larry are practically unidentifiable from the message. By posting at the top (or bottom) it would have been clearer which were your answers.
Every line of the post I am replying to has a > in front of it if using a plain text reader. In thunderbird as I have it configured there is a coloured vertical line before all of the text I am replying to and not in front of my reply. I was giving specific answers to each part of your post. Interspersing makes it clear what specific point I was responding to.
Sometimes interspersing becomes possible if i notice the other persons response is in a different colour but in plain text it just doesn't work without good spacing. From the 1st discernible answer i clearly wasn't missing much this time tho! Normally i think sure rudeness should not be answered at all.
It is rude to not fix your quote attributions after many asked to do so countless times. It is rude to not follow standard netiquette and continue to obstinately top post despite many requests.
You should also delete the signatures at the bottom of the posts. When using plain text a properly configured email client automatically deletes everything after the delimiter (-- ).
That only happens when people are too clueless or too lazy to trim their
replies.
.......snip of material that should never have been quoted.......
Hi:)
I use a standard email client in a standard way set on it's defaults. There are likely to be more people using such systems as LibreOffice becomes more popular. Hold onto your hats!
The headers state that you are using "YahooMailClassic/14.0.5 YahooMailWebService/0.8.113.315625"
That is not an email client. That is an online web mail service (and a very poor one. Gmail works much better).
It has been explained to you before how to change the settings.
Why are people in here so determined to make things unpleasant and difficult for normal office workers?
Nobody is trying to make anything difficult for normal office workers.
When a regular poster refuses to follow standard netiquette they are making things difficult for other support givers.
Is LibreOffice not meant to be used in offices by office workers?
Yes it is, and that point is irrelevant to this discussion.
Some of you have convinced me to use top posting, since it is better.
Some of you have convinced me to use bottom posting, since it is better.
Some of you have convinced me to do snipping, since it is better.
Obviously there isn't a black and white solution.
True, there isn't a 100% correct *absolute* *physical* solution as to the correct way to format. The solution is for everyone in any particular newsgroup to follow the same criteria and agreed upon formatting rules. AKA, the netiquette link at the bottom of every post. And, notably, the link on to how to format and quote replies.
I got into a discussion about netiquette early on with a poster here, and in researching the issue, it just confirmed your statement about a black and white solution.
What was apparent was, each and every newsgroup I looked at, that had netiquette rules, insisted you follow those rules. No one said their way was correct for *all* newsgroups. Just that their rules were correct for their newsgroup, and you were expected to follow them.
For Tom, as much as I respect his knowledge about LO, he and others are so out of line in not following the rules for *this* newsgroup, I don't think it's funny. How can these folks tell their children, coworkers, friends, to follow certain rules when they don't follow the rules here?
*My Big Concern* here is how are we being perceived by those who come
here for help by the amount of time that has been spent on this thread
today. I was one of the first responders last night. Never did I dream
when I went to bed last night my inbox will be filled with a discussion
like this today. People come here for help. People come here to help
others. If this was the first day I came to this list, and I saw all of
this and my problem being somewhat trivialized by all of this
discussion, I would be out of hear.
My perception if I was a new user, is if a thread is long, it must be something important enough to generate that much discussion.
But once I started reading the posts, and found that replies were here and there and spread all over the place, I'd get so frustrated trying to figure things out I'd just leave after awhile.
And that would certainly not help the LO cause.
I'm not trying to hurt anybody's feelings, but quite honestly, I'm sure
a newcomer hear today would not be at all impressed with a list that has
done a tremendous amount of good for LibreOffice and provided great help
to many people in the past.
I certainly agree with you here.
Hi:)
Look, the interspersed answers from Larry are practically unidentifiable from the message.
> By posting at the top (or bottom) it would have been clearer which were your answers.
Sometimes interspersing becomes possible if i notice the other persons response is in a
> different colour but in plain text it just doesn't work without good spacing. From the 1st
> discernible answer i clearly wasn't missing much this time tho! Normally i think sure
> rudeness should not be answered at all.
With all due respect Tom, the problem is you and the tools you've chosen to use for replying to newsgroups. Yahoo Mail just plain sucks and doesn't properly do anything right for places like this.
I've not tried Gmail for something like newsgroups, but their conversational message display might work a bit better.
And Larry is quite right, with Thunderbird, you have proper attributions so figuring out who said what isn't all that hard. And a helluva a lot easier than figuring it out from a top posted message.
FYI, this is another of your messages I've had to reformat manually because of your choice of tools. Getting tired of it.
A reply *should* only be to one message at a time, not to several at
once. Assuming properly trimmed messages (which yours was not), where
does all this scrolling you refer to come in?
.......snip of extraneous verbiage......
<snip>
Besides it doesn't matter how strong the argument against top-posting might be.
> The fact is that it is widely used especially by office workers.
So, if painting graffiti all over walls and buildings was widely done, you'd be OK with them painting graffiti all over *your* walls and buildings?
Just because something is widely practiced, doesn't make it right or acceptable.
Think about it, even when you use the different programs in the LO suite, you're following the rules aren't you?
Do we want to stop officeworkers from using LibreOffice? Alienating them would be a
> good way to get them to stay with whatever else they already use.
Following the rules will not make them stop using LibreOffice. Giving them an office package full of bugs that never get fixed, promising features that never arrive, and providing poor support is what will make them stop using Libre Office.
<snip>
Most people would rather use forums anyway as mailing lists are ancient
and out-dated.
They may be "ancient", but not necessarily out-dated. It all depends on what is comfortable with the reader. I had a hard time with LO's mailing list, and almost gave up and moved on.
Then, I learned about the Gmane interface, not from LO's (IMO their crappy website, which I will comment on in that group when I have some free time) but from a mailing list post. Since then, except when things went south due to address changes, I've used exclusively since then. And will continue to do so. Nabble can go the way of the Kiwi bird, for all I care! 
So, do we want to go the route of betamax, ie obscurity, or do we want to get LibreOffice
> out there and being used?
If you provide a good, solid package, and just spread the word about it, it will be used.
Tom, what are you doing differently with your posts than you were doing earlier? I use Thunderbird via Gmane, and your messages look just fine. But when I hit Reply, each of your paragraphs turn into a loooooooooooooong sentence that I have to reformat manually in order to write a legible, and properly formatted (following the rules) reply.
It didn't used to be this way.
Hi
Reply below:
> For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please
> consider bottom posting with interspersed replies.
>
> I realiz(s)e that the existing:
> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/
> doesn't specifically clarify anything with regards to top/bottom
> posting. However at the bottom of each mail on this list is a link to:
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> That page doesn't help much either, but it /does/ include a link to:
> http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
> which includes this bit:
> http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html#ss2.3
>
> <quote>
> 2.3 Why should I place my response below the quoted text?
>
> Usually, the reading-flow is from left to right and from top to bottom,
> and people expect a chronological sequence similar to this. Especially
> people who are reading a lot of articles (and who therefore would
> qualify as the ideal person to answer your question) appreciate it if
> they can read at first the text to which you are referring. The quoted
> text is some kind of help to remember the topic, which of course will
> not work, if you place the quoted text below your response.
>
> Furthermore, that's the standard. This may sound as a weak argument, but
> since people are not used to reading the other way around, they have no
> idea what you are referring to and have to go back and forth between the
> referenced articles, have to jump between different articles and so on.
> In short - reading the article becomes more and more difficult - for
> people who read many articles it is reason enough to skip the entire
> article, if the context is not obvious.
>
> And besides: doesn't it look stupid to first get the answer and then see
> the question? (Aside from Jeopardy, of course.)
>
> Furthermore, you (yes: You) save a lot of time using this way of
> quoting: You do not need to repeat what the person you refer to wrote,
> in order to show the context. You just place your comment after the text
> you wish to comment upon, and everybody immediately knows what you refer
> to. Also, you realize which text you are *not* responding to and can
> delete these parts.
>
> So: using this technique you save time, your readers don't have to waste
> time, you save bandwidth and disk-space. Isn't it great what you can
> achieve by such simple means?
> </quote>
>
> and that seems to imply that such posting styles on this list are the
> desired guideline.
>
> Samples of similar on other lists:
>
> http://www.mozilla.org/about/forums/etiquette.html
> <quote>
> Top-posting vs bottom-posting.
>
> Some people like to put reply after the quoted text, some like it
> the other way around, and still some prefer interspersed style. Debates
> about which posting style is better have led to many flame wars in the
> forums. To keep forum discussion friendly, please do interspersion with
> trimming (see above for trimming rules). For a simple reply, this is
> equivalent bottom-posting. So, remove extraneous material, and place
> your comments in logical order, after the text you are commenting upon.
> The only exceptions are the accessibility forums, which are top-posting.
> </quote>
>
> http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists
> <quote>
> Proper quoting:
>
> Proper quoting is very important on mailing lists, to ensure that it is
> easy to follow the conversation. There are four fundamental rules:
>
> ....
>
> Write your email underneath the email which you are replying to.
> ...
> </quote>
>
> and even:
> http://www.openoffice.org/ml_guidelines.html
> <quote>
> Replying
> When replying to other people it is customary to intersperse your
> response with their questions, both so you can answer the actual
> question that was asked, and so everyone else has some idea what you are
> talking about. It is also customary to limit your quoting to the minimum
> possible to get your point across. Take the time to be considerate,
> remember those subscribers who have slow, expensive connections.
> </quote>
>
> Note: that last is liable to go away given the recent
> transition/announcements by Apache regarding mail lists... but it's
> worth mentioning anyway.
>
> Eventually I hope that LO will actually include a link to general
> posting guidelines on the
> <http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/> page with complete
> posting guidelines. Even if the final consensus is to only top post...
> at least will help with consistancy on this (users), and the other LO lists.
>
> Added Note: I've set the 'Followup-to' on this message to the discuss
> list as I think that is more the appropriate location for continued
> discussion of the issue. But I posted here initially on the users list
> as this is the list that really needs the guidelines (IMO) the most.
>
>
>
Hi All,I will respect your wishes about posting at the bottom. I live in the
US. I do a lot of work e-mails in my job, and receive a lot of work
e-mails. I never receive any e-mails where people reply to me at the
bottom. The reply is always at the top. I never understood why
Thunderbird had the default to reply at the bottom when Thunderbird came
out. It was backwards!!!!!! So I have always changed the default on
every system I've installed it on. Maybe there are different customs in
different countries.Don
The real reason is on a list one may be joining the thread late and
needs to know what has been discussed. Often business emails are just
written conversations between people. Thus top posting works there very
well.
<orcmid>
Oddly, on the Apache lists retention of the full text and bottom posting attracts giant thunderbolts because so many users rely on a service like GMANE to read the list and so they always have context and don't need all of that material repeated endlessly. It is in their way.
On the other hand, over there I am eviscerated because I keep breaking threads, but never for top posting.
And this is the last time I will bottom post, only because I know the preceding poster did.
You'll also notice that my reply doesn't have an additional set of brackets, so in-line commenting makes it very difficult to know what is new comment and what is from the previous message.
PS: It is often handy to see the answer first. I can quickly determine whether or not I care what the question is. And if I know what the general run of a thread has been, I don't need to see the rest of the message except to check for blankety-blank inline but unannounced comments.
PPS:I even receive my mail last-in first and I can process it that way. Sometimes I see the answer at the end of a long thread first and I know I can ignore the intermediate replies. I don't *always* do that, but it can be very handy.
PPPS: I am amused that, for the years of struggle with working on lists and email and newsgroups, there is still this notion of a forced one size fits all as if it really fits all.
</orcmid>
Total nonsense.
The fact is the new generation have little regard/respect for the open
source community. There has been only one previous post that had the
grace to accept the ethos and adapt, instead of being lazy (i.e. for
digest mode users, message users+get-10643@global.libreoffice.org)
Apparently, increasing numbers are choosing to ignore convention. Such
people unable to adjust their own behaviour (e.g. choosing an
appropriate program) can probably not be relied upon to encourage
others (and use LO); the limit of their encouragement is: "look you
can send m$ documents for free!
Onto another favourite topic: LO promotion.
Focus on corporate markets for LO is flawed, there are too many
factors to consider. If you complaint is to get LO to be a perfect m$
clone, please send your requests to m$.
Instead, the focus should be on individuals and flawless use odf documents.
...
Besides it doesn't matter how strong the argument against top-posting might
be. The fact is that it is widely used especially by office workers. Do we
want to stop office workers from using LibreOffice? Alienating them would
be a good way to get them to stay with whatever else they already use.
If those all-important office clerks are going to be dismayed by
posting rules, no point telling these people about the advantages of
LO; the response will most likely be: "but m$ does it this way"
Betamax was a better format than VHS but it lost the battle for acceptance
and now the argument is irrelevant anyway. Perhaps it is similar with
bottom posting. It might be better but almost no-one in our target markets
Since when did office clerks constitute the LO target market???
use it (note the "almost" there). Most people would rather use forums
anyway as mailing lists are ancient and out-dated.
It had to happen; the inevitable complaint about the lack of forums:
why are you here when the forums are elsewhere? Unsubscribe
instructions below...
Hi All,
*My Big Concern* here is how are we being perceived by those who come
here for help by the amount of time that has been spent on this thread
today. I was one of the first responders last night. Never did I dream
when I went to bed last night my inbox will be filled with a discussion
like this today. People come here for help. People come here to help
others. If this was the first day I came to this list, and I saw all of
this and my problem being somewhat trivialized by all of this
discussion, I would be out of here.My perception if I was a new user, is if a thread is long, it must be something important enough to generate that much discussion.
But once I started reading the posts, and found that replies were here and there and spread all over the place, I'd get so frustrated trying to figure things out I'd just leave after awhile.
And that would certainly not help the LO cause.
I'm not trying to hurt anybody's feelings, but quite honestly, I'm sure
a newcomer here today would not be at all impressed with a list that has
done a tremendous amount of good for LibreOffice and provided great help
to many people in the past.I certainly agree with you here.
Thanks Ken!
Another thing. Does anyone actually read those links at the bottom? I'm not asking this facetiously. I joined this List probably about 5 months ago and have left a fair number of posts. I never, ever, once, looked at anything at the bottom. I never even thought about looking at anything down there. I would assume that is true for most folks. I did look at the links tonight, but am too far behind to click on them right now.
Don
Hi All,
*My Big Concern* here is how are we being perceived by those who come
here for help by the amount of time that has been spent on this thread
today. I was one of the first responders last night. Never did I dream
when I went to bed last night my inbox will be filled with a discussion
like this today. People come here for help. People come here to help
others. If this was the first day I came to this list, and I saw all of
this and my problem being somewhat trivialized by all of this
discussion, I would be out of here.My perception if I was a new user, is if a thread is long, it must be
something important enough to generate that much discussion.But once I started reading the posts, and found that replies were here
and there and spread all over the place, I'd get so frustrated trying
to figure things out I'd just leave after awhile.And that would certainly not help the LO cause.
I'm not trying to hurt anybody's feelings, but quite honestly, I'm sure
a newcomer here today would not be at all impressed with a list that has
done a tremendous amount of good for LibreOffice and provided great help
to many people in the past.I certainly agree with you here.
Thanks Ken!
You're welcome, Don.
Another thing. Does anyone actually read those links at the bottom? I'm
not asking this facetiously. I joined this List probably about 5 months
ago and have left a fair number of posts. I never, ever, once, looked at
anything at the bottom. I never even thought about looking at anything
down there. I would assume that is true for most folks. I did look at
the links tonight, but am too far behind to click on them right now.
The answer is probably not!
The funny thing is, as well as ironic, if you go to LO's netiquette site, there is a link to this page: http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html .
If you take the time to read the article, it specifically says *not* to put information at the bottom/sig area because no one will read it! LMAO!
Why do you use such a bad application?
At least, your application should allow you to remove the text you're answering to.
Please dont argue your're prisonner.
I personnally can find what you answer to by cliquing on the precedent message, because threads are conversation organised.
I think that single paragraph explains why this thread has become so
heated. YOU are reading this list on a NEWSGROUP. But the list is also
available as a EMAIL LIST and an archive of that same EMAIL LIST on
Nabble. I would hazard a guess that the vast majority are subscribed to
the email list or view it on Nabble, and as such consider it as an
email list and not a newsgroup.
Newsgroup people have shown over the years to have different practices
than emailers. Bottom posters probably predominate, also the practice
of long quotes seems far more prevalent there. And noting the comments
about threading, most newsgroup readers do it via the header
information. Email clients do it in various ways and I suspect Pegasus
is far from unique in doing if from the subject line - and many email
programs have never heard of threading...
I do receive a number of lists via newsgroups, using Gravity. But I by
far prefer email so this is my chosen option for this list.
We are never going to agree on these issues due the huge differences in
opinion between the newsgroup, email and forum people. So let us close
these threads immediately and accept our differences.
Dave
Irrelevant. All of the OpenOffice.org lists were email. Some of us used Gmane to read them as a newsgroup. The stated OOo netiquette was to intersperse. Many other email lists are the same. It is irrelevant that some of us read this email list through Gmane. Proper netiquette is the same. Some people are too obstinate to post properly.
MSOffice is widely used, dont use LibreOffice then.
Agreed; yahoo is terrible, stopped using it years ago. Why would
someone choose product with such poor functionality, then blame others
for not being able to provide a simple ability to reply to messages
with appropriate quote (e.g. angle bracket (>) character)
convention??? Anyway, reading the press about the demise of yet
another md of yahoo, with luck yahoo will disappear and take their
mail users too.
I only look at them if and when I have a desire to learn something about how the list works - like, maybe, how to unsubscribe.
Another thing. Does anyone actually read those links at the bottom?
I only look at them if and when I have a desire to learn something
about how the list works - like, maybe, how to unsubscribe.
Irony is how apparently that's when it fails. Many people just complain
about a bunch of e-mails without having even read one of them.
Well, anyway, when someone fails to read the .sig, or follow some other
rule, other people just point them what they missed, and everyone moves
on. It's not a big deal.
--
For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+help@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
I think I've already commented (or someone else did) that the
unsubscribe address isn't here, but now that I look at it...
unsubscribe instructions -> address to request general help from the
list software
problems -> web page with instructions on how to unsubscribe
Did the wires get crossed?